How to be a role model for your children through divorce

Buzzy Randall 0:00 Doesn't matter what side of the divorce you're on, you're going to be affected, your confidence is going to be knocked, it's going to be painful, whatever. And to be in that scary place without much confidence, you realise a lot about yourself. Kate Daly 0:18 Welcome to The Divorce Podcast, where we explore all aspects of ending relationships, separation, and parenting apart. If your marriage or partnership has ended, or you have friends and family who are separating, this podcast is for you. I'm Kate Daly, a relationship counsellor, divorce specialist, and co-founder of amicable, the online legal service for separating couples. In each episode, we look at relationships and separation from different angles, including the emotional, legal, and social. I'm joined by experts and special guests who share their own unique stories, experience, and tips, with the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder and better way. In this episode, I'm joined by Bussy Randall, a hospitality consultant, to share her own separation story from role modelling for her children to the shame around infidelity, friendship shifts, and finding her confidence again. This episode touches on issues of infidelity, so do listen with care. If you love this episode, then please subscribe and rate us on your preferred listening platform. Welcome, Buzzy. Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. It's really lovely to have you. And it's exciting to be able to spend some time talking about your own divorce story and your personal journey and how that shaped your career and how you help other people as well. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Let's start, if we can, by you sharing a little bit about your own separation story. So was there a single moment when you knew your marriage was over, or was it something that built more slowly than that? Buzzy Randall 2:01 Well, it was two things. It was both, really. And I suppose that uh everybody who goes through a separation and a divorce will say similar things that in hindsight all the signs were there, but you didn't want to see them. So there was a defining moment that involved me reading a message on his phone that really confirmed the suspicions that I'd had and that just really put a full stop on it. And I felt very passionately, as a mother of daughters, that I had to act in a very considered way for their futures, and that I had to show them as a woman that we were worth more. Because I know that a lot of couples can get through an infidelity, but I felt that we were not a couple that could, and that that I wanted to show my daughters that they were worth more, that they that being cheated on was not something that they had to put up with when they grow up. So, yes, that was the kind of defining moment. Kate Daly 3:18 Yeah. That is so interesting because we often talk about what you role model to your children when you know you're at the point of deciding whether or not a marriage is over. And I often have conversations with people where I say to them when they're kind of thinking that it might be worse for their kids if they leave, even if the marriage is broken, dysfunctional, not working. And I don't mean that there has to be abuse or something really like really terrible going on, but even, as you say, things that are just not morally right from your perspective or don't feel right, where it's infidelity and things like that. And I often say to people, well, would you want your kids, if your kids came to you and asked for your advice and asked you whether or not they should aspire to the relationship that you have, if the answer to that isn't yes, then you are you've got a quite a tough decision because effectively you're role modelling that staying is okay, even though you don't think it's okay. And that's really confusing for kids. It's really truck, it's really tricky. So I it's really interesting to hear you say that. That you felt you felt straight away that you knew that it wasn't something that you could get past. Because 18 years, you've been married 18 years, that is a long marriage, isn't it? It's a long time to be with somebody. Buzzy Randall 4:38 I think the thing that really hurt the most was that it's 18 years building a future for that future to then come crashing down, is it's not so much the 18 years that you've spent together because you've had those 18 years, it's then seeing the next 18 years and what do they look like. And that's where my children really became so important in that decision making because they've got then they're now teenagers, and they're going to be embarking on relationships and hopefully marriages of their own and families of their own. And it was really important to for me to show them what a strong and capable woman I can be as their mum, but also they can be. Kate Daly 5:32 You role modeled it from the outset, which is really interesting because sometimes in those moments when you're right at the sharp end of it, your own emotions and the immediacy of how it feels can can overwhelm you, can't it? And it can completely get out, you know, in the way. But it sounds to me like actually, even in that real sort of moment of crisis, you were thinking about the bigger picture. How do you do that? How are you not overwhelmed? Buzzy Randall 5:59 I was utterly overwhelmed for months, if not years. So I I mean, it's easy to sit here now and say, oh, well, I made a decision based on them. I mean, it was terrifying, it still is terrifying, but it's also definitely it definitely was the right decision. And I do question if I'd had boys, if I might have made a different decision. But I didn't have boys, so there's no point kind of dwelling on it. But I it's I suppose in in the process of healing and going through all of this and my studies and psychology and everything, I have thought, I wonder if I wasn't so if it wasn't so important for me to show my girls the strength of being a woman, if my decision would have been a different one, or if I would have maybe felt it wasn't so important and you know, well, maybe just stick through it and brush it under the carpet. I don't know that I don't have sons, I have daughters. So the decision was made. Kate Daly 7:14 And as you were going through this, you said you were overwhelmed, and as you were going through that sense of feeling so overwhelmed, what was it that allowed you to kind of move forward? Because there'll be people listening who will recognise this narrative and recognize the story. What helped you put one foot in front of another? How did you keep going in those very early days when you'd made this big decision to end a long marriage that had children involved? You know, they're some of the biggest barriers, aren't there? It wasn't a short marriage, it wasn't that there wasn't any kids, you know, it was complicated. You'd shared a life of 18 years together, you're staring down the barrel of, as you say, not the lovely times you've had in the past, but the sense of nothingness. You've got to rebuild this future you'd expected to have. What helped you in those moments go from one day to the next? Buzzy Randall 8:05 I think it's really important, certainly at the very beginning, to a bit like when you're going into battle, you need to, or or you're playing a sport, you need to have your team around you. And that can look different to everybody, but it's your immediate support network. And my children were part of that team, but and my family, my parents, my sisters, they were part of that team. But then also I got a mentor, which happened by complete chance. Um, but I was consulting with the career coach. I was saying to her, she's become a really good friend of mine and she's brilliant and she's totally helped me out. But I was saying, I just I'm struggling with the divorce process. I don't know anybody who has been through what I'm going through, and I don't know the process. I don't know the like there's no divorce in my family anywhere. So, and I don't I don't know what the lawyers are saying, I don't know what to expect, I don't understand any of this. I felt really alone, which is bizarre because 50% of us who are married are gonna go through this, and so it's it felt really strange to be going through something that so many people go through and yet feeling like I was the only person in the world going through it. And I explained this to her, and she said, I've got a friend, he's going through a divorce, he's about a year ahead of you in the process. Call him. And so we we spoke, and still I still speak to him every week. We schedule an hour, and he's become one of my closest friends, and I adore him. And he I'd like to think we both really helped each other, but he was really helpful and just helped explain the processes and and I think also him being a male helped because I wasn't. Kate Daly 10:05 You had an alternative perspective, you weren't just hunkering down as the female side of the story, but you had an insight into presumably how you'd need to negotiate and what what your ex might be thinking, and you'd got an insight into that. And I think that's the bit that so many times we miss when we're going through this. But actually, it's not so much I think people get obsessed with thinking about having a very clear strategy for what they want and what they need, and you forget that actually the successful negotiators amongst the world, they're the people who think about what the other person needs. So, what are you what are you allowing them to get off their tick list that will allow them to say yes to your tick list? That's to me is so interesting. So, this was all because you had a male friend going through it at the same time, or yeah, albeit he was ahead of you. Buzzy Randall 10:58 Yeah, but he yes, he's I value his friendship enormously. And of course, it's the sisterhood, isn't it? I mean, uh, my girlfriends, so what I lived abroad initially, my ex-husband and I lived abroad, and then I came back to the UK with the girls so that they could go to school here. And so we moved to a part of the country that was nowhere that I was familiar with. So I knew no one, had no friends, um, didn't know the area at all. But I created a group of friends, and I'd only known this the group of friends probably for about six months before my marriage ended. But that group of friends just rallied and they still rally for me when I need them. And the power of the sisterhood is extraordinary, and so I don't, you know, in those initial days when it was all terrible, they it's that team of people that picked me up. And I think the fact that I was in a position to know that I what I needed, I think a lot of people maybe think, I don't know what I need, I don't know where I'm going. And I just was ready to hold on to any life raft that I could. And and actually they were all life rafts, and they're the ones that got me through it and put a smile on my face, I suppose. Kate Daly 12:25 I think you're right. I don't think you can underestimate the power of, you know, you said you needed your team around you, and the different people within that network play different roles, don't they? So you might have professional people, you might have the coach or the mentor or whoever, and then you might have a close group of girlfriends who are there, as you say, as that emotional life raft who will, you know, pick you up, take you for a walk, look after the kids, or you know, create a play date or whatever it is, or bring the wine round, or help with some of the more practical things. It is it's having that group that you can rely on. And sometimes I think this is where men in particular miss out a bit more because sometimes, not always, but sometimes the friendship bonds aren't quite so strong, and it's harder, less culturally acceptable for men to ask for that support. And we shouldn't underestimate the fact that you asked for support with a group of people who were relatively new to you as well. That's brave. That's really brave. How did you get the strength to reach out? Was it, I mean, maybe it was sheer desperation, but it feels or maybe it's part of personality, but what is it that kind of allowed you to reach out in those circumstances? Buzzy Randall 13:42 So I felt deeply humiliated by my situation. And there is stigma about your I felt very much when that my husband had had an affair and left me. And I felt that that was very much a reflection of me to begin with. And so, and he also left. Like, we didn't see him, he just wasn't then part of our lives. And so there was an element of explaining that I had to do at the school events and the school this and the school. Kate Daly 14:17 It was a hard exit, wasn't it? Really, it wasn't anything you you could gradually wind his presence down in any way. It was it was obviously very dramatic and hard. Buzzy Randall 14:26 Yeah, and you have to you have to explain why he's not there. So I was like, I have to face this head on, pull on my big garb pants and do it. And you know, there are terrible things happening in the world. This is not one of them, I can do it. And it was just, and it was actually just saying to everybody, yeah, this is this is what's going on, but we're gonna get through it. And everyone went, yeah, we're gonna help you get there. And it's amazing how how when you I think I think people really do want to support and show love and empathy. And if you're honest about it, that just comes in bucket loads. And I'm really glad I didn't hide behind it because I did feel such a huge amount of shame to begin with and humiliation. Kate Daly 15:17 And that why do we feel shame and humiliation for something that's not our fault and is a part of life and a natural process? I just don't understand. But we do, don't we? We all do, we all feel shame. But where does that come from, do you think? Buzzy Randall 15:32 I think it's a generational thing, and I think it ties back to another reason why it was so important that I ended the marriage, because we, I think, as women, we're often brought up to to feel that shame and to to be martyrs and to to do everything and and be everything. And there is a generational shift that's happening now. I think there's a societal shift and a cultural shift in in our roles as women within this society. And and also for men, like my my younger sister's husband does 50% of all the childcare, all the housework. I mean, it's incredible. They have this incredible setup that didn't exist when I first got married and had children, and and it's very much the norm now. And and so I think we have this this residual shame that's been passed down to us that it's humiliating and shameful that your husband has not, you know, has had to look elsewhere. It's in some way a reflection on you. Whereas I think that is that is gonna change. And and I hope that when my daughters get married, that that's absolutely not a conversation that's had. Kate Daly 16:57 It's funny because when you were talking before and you were saying you felt humiliated, I was thinking, why do we carry the emotional feeling for somebody else's choice or behavior? So somebody does something, in this case has an affair, and yet we take on the feelings of shame and upset. And that I think you're right, that is a cultural thing. There must be something wrong with us if that person has treated us in that way, not let's look at their behavior and critique their behavior. But what have we done wrong in order to encourage that behavior? And that goes through a lot of things around violence against women, sexual violence, all of those sorts of things. That same thread is woven all the way through, isn't it? And I think that's something that we have to, we have to try and teach this next generation, as you say, that that's not the cultural norm. And part of what you're doing, I guess, in the way you behave by saying that's just not acceptable, that's a boundary cost, is exactly that. It's modelling that new kind of behavior. So it's a really amazing story, a really incredible story to unpack. So I'm I'm really appreciative that you're sharing it. What do you think then? Thinking about that mentor that you had. So you've got your circle of friends who are doing the emotional hard work, the day in, day out, school gate stuff with you. What was it about having a mentor that helped you navigate, you know, the next stages and the next stages? What did it do for your emotional resilience, do you think? Buzzy Randall 18:28 Well, I think because we didn't know each other before. So, and and I suppose in an old-fashioned way, it would have been a pen pal. Like I've actually only met him in person twice, but we speak on the phone, like I said, every week. And it was having somebody who was completely neutral to my life and to my history, didn't know anything about me or my ex-husband, my children, or my family, nothing. We just had, and likewise me, him. And so we had this completely blank page with which to build the trust. So I was then able to choose what parts of my story were important to tell him at any given time. And and I suppose that's like any friendship, it builds over time, and likewise he did with me. And we now know lots about each other's lives, but he also there was no judgment, so there wasn't, you know, if I was like, I'm just having a really bad week, he just was like, I'm sorry to hear that. And that's kind of what I needed to hear. I didn't want to then get get into the the nuts and bolts of why I'd had a bad week. He was just like, Yeah, that that happens sometimes. Kate Daly 19:53 And he went, it sounds like he wasn't trying to fix you, like he wasn't trying to say, Yeah, oh well, if you had a bad week, then you're at this point in the process, and so you need to be going off and doing A, B, C, D. So it felt, it feels like it's almost, you know, you well, you're a psychologist, aren't you, as well? You it's like that creating those core conditions where you can be heard without judgment, and there's the space and there isn't somebody's agenda showing up or any of those sorts of things. So it feels like it was a really welcome space for you to be you in that moment. And like you say, to bring without the fear of being fixed, to say without the fear of being judged, all of that kind of stuff. That feels really quite important as like as part of that recovery journey. Buzzy Randall 20:37 Yes, I think it is important. I think, I think one of the big, the big things that that certainly I wasn't aware of was how your friend group changes in a separation. And I think it's only natural, but I look back on it, I'm like, of course, there are loyalties that are gonna go either way, and those loyalties can be based on history. You know, well, I people have known my ex-husband longer than they've known me, they're gonna maintain a friendship with him. At the time, I couldn't understand how that was possible. Knowing the choices that he'd made, I felt that that was unfair. But actually, of course it's fair. And people make their own choices in what whatever direction they go. And I think that I didn't lose friends, but I lost the connection, which was the fact that my husband and I were married and we were a couple, and therefore our friendship was based on that. So when that changed, that friendship changed. But in the process, I got a whole new group of friends. So where there's a loss, there's a gain. And I think initially that overwhelm that we talked about earlier. That is very much I was overwhelmed by the change in the friendships. And I wasn't because the new friendships were forming, I didn't see the strength in them. I saw the massive, the massive loss. Whereas now I look and I see the strength in those friendships as they've got stronger, as the process has gone on. And I valued those so much. Kate Daly 22:26 But you're describing loss aversion therapy, that loss aversion principle as well, aren't you? Where we feel losses way more keenly than we feel gains. But it's interesting that you say that gets moderated over time when you can look back at events and actually appreciate what you gained, you know, way more than worrying about what you lost as well. So it's we were talking, weren't we, just before we came on, before we came on air and hit the record button, this idea that you your story just develops over time. There isn't a one truth to the story. We're looking in at your story at this particular point in time and it looks a certain way. But if we came back and did this again later, two years, three years, five years, ten years down the line, then your story would sound and feel maybe different again, wouldn't it? So I'm really interested in this idea of how these stories unfold and you know that the timeline involved as well. So yeah, funny. You mentioned earlier that you've you've got two daughters, and you also said that you were living abroad. Was there an opportunity to co-parent then with the with the the girls? Or how did that all work? How did you sort of segue into this sort of having some kind of parenting relationship? Buzzy Randall 23:43 So that that for me that hasn't happened. So we don't co-parent. But also I must give credit to I I have a wonderful new partner, and he has stepped into the role of being a we're not married, but of being a step parent. I suppose where there was a vacancy for a male figure in the girls' lives, he's just come in and been completely wonderful. So he is with me on the pitch side and at the school events and on the weekends doing homework. Kate Daly 24:22 And how do you think the girls have adjusted then to sort of a new way of being? You mentioned at the beginning of this that you know nobody in your family was divorced, you didn't have any divorced friends. So have you found divorced friends? And therefore, is this kind of more normalized to them, or do they feel, I know you can't speak for them, or do you get the sense that they're they feel different? How does that part of it work in your family? How do you talk about that stuff? Buzzy Randall 24:51 Well, I think I mean we do talk about it. Yes, there was this huge change, but we're in the same house, we've got the same dogs, they're at the same school, you know, the school, yes, that changed, but it's day to day, it becomes a routine. Christmas still happens, birthdays still happen, you know, the all the traditions that the girls and I had always done, I maintained. And so then there it felt like there was a sense of normality undercurrent throughout it all. And I felt that was really important. That even though on the surface we all might be spinning out of control, there was this anchor that would just flowed with us. Kate Daly 25:40 I think it's so important. I mean, I I was listening when you were saying, you know, they were moving schools. Mine were very small when I went through this, and I can remember my nanny handing in his notice at the same time that we were moving house as a consequence of the divorce into a, you know, we're going from our nice, lovely house that we'd all shared to being in a kind of a small house and the nanny wasn't coming with us. That to me at the time felt like the worst thing that could ever, ever happen. I mean, I felt utterly bereft at this. And what I learned through that was actually, yeah, it was tough. But at the same time, the consistency is you. We are the consistency. And the consistency of love and showing up with love, even when those things that you can't control are happening all around you, whether, you know, nanny for me, schools for you, might be area, could be jobs, could be friendship groups, you know, whatever it is where we're all feeling totally distressed that our kids haven't got that consistency, it's us showing up with love and being the parent we've all always been. That's what actually keeps them on healthy, straight and narrow rather than anything else. And I sometimes worry, because you know, we talk about this a lot in the work that I do with couples where we're trying to keep everything the same and people are tearing their hair out about we can't move here, we can't do this, we can't change anything, you know, we the the dog has to follow the kids, we've got to have the gerbils here, there, and everything. You know, it's and it's it's all valid stuff. But it's us showing up with that love that really will protect them. So if you're in that position where you're being forced to change things and you don't want to, I would just say to people, don't give up because you showing up in your consistent way is the thing that will make the difference to the kids absolutely and totally. And I was just thinking of that when you were saying. So I was thinking about the my own desperately trying to cling on to something that's going to stay the same in a sea of everything else changing. It's it's frightening stuff, isn't it? It really is. Buzzy Randall 27:42 It is. And I think I think people do really, you know, like you said, who where's the gerbil going to go? You you fixate on something really small that isn't important as the most important thing ever. And and I think it's important that you have those things, but also it's easy to look back and say, they're not so important. But actually, what is important, like you said, is is you as a parent just being a parent and being real. Like I think a lot of people said to me, Oh, well, don't show your emotions in front of the girls and don't cry in front of the girls, and the whole concept of dignity must maintain your dignity. And I mean, I've I pretty much hung my coat of dignity up when I gave birth. So I'm I don't know when I picked it back up again. I don't think I did. And and I was like, this is the reality of the breakdown of the marriage, and that is that I will cry and I will have a bad day, and I will, you know, get upset about something really silly or or cry at an advert. That's the reality. I'm being me. This is what it feels like for me, and I'm not gonna hide that from you. I'm not gonna burden you with it, but I'm not gonna hide it from you because this is the reality. This is what being a woman is, and this is the consequence of the decisions that I made, but we will get through it. Kate Daly 29:11 And I think that's what kids need. They don't need you to be perfect, they need to see you trying hard, doing the best, regrouping, going again, and they need to know that that resilience, that ability to keep going is the thing that that sets you apart, not that you've got everything under control or that it's all perfect. I mean, you you were saying just then, it doesn't feel like it was a terribly long time ago when all of this happened, but yet here you are talking about it in the past with a life that you've reconstructed um and a successful career. How did you discover or how did you rediscover what you wanted? Um and now we're sort of looking at something different, having had to give up the hopes and dreams that you had had, how did you get to that point where you could really spend the time to rediscover to redirect your life? What happened? Buzzy Randall 30:11 Well, I think it's a work in progress. Um, and I'm still working things out. I mean, ultimately, uh it's given me the space to really reflect on, and this sounds corny, but my own self-identity, like who actually am I? What do I like in life? What do I want in life? Because I got married quite young and I had children quite young. And my future, like I said, I'd mapped it out with my husband. I that was it. I was like, well, I'm gonna grow old here. I'm gonna do, you know, this is it. I'm I've I've spent 18 years building this future. And so when you're forced to look at it and change it, you then realize I realized I didn't really know anything about what I wanted or who I was or what my hopes and dreams were, or what actually what I really liked doing. And that that whole in the last two years I've really learned that about myself. And and that's why I went back to education and did the masters, and I've done a beekeeping course, and I've done lots of cooking again, and it's a it is it's ever evolving. So it's not there wasn't one, I suppose one thing was the divorce and separation forced me to actually look in the mirror at myself. And I had to make those decisions for me. They weren't decisions that were made by my ex-husband or my ex-husband's family, or collectively, they were my decisions to make for myself. And actually, that's quite scary. Kate Daly 31:52 It's quite scary, it's quite a big thing as well. And we've sort of brushed over it almost in a sentence, haven't we? But that's quite a massive deal. Because if you've been socialized to make collaborative decisions, and that's part of being in a relationship, and we're told that's you know what we do, and of course that's what you do if you're in a relationship. But to suddenly then be the mistress of all of your own decisions, that's a that's a big shift and a big change, isn't it? Buzzy Randall 32:17 Yeah, and I think divorce really can knock your confidence. Doesn't matter what side of the divorce you're on, whether you're the man or the woman, the the the one the wrong or the one the right, it if there is that, it doesn't matter, you're gonna be affected, your confidence is gonna be knocked, it's gonna be painful, whatever. And to then to be in that scary place without much confidence, you realize a lot about yourself. Yeah. Kate Daly 32:47 In just a moment, Buzzy, I'm going to ask you to share some advice on getting started with the divorce process and some advice about imagining how you would fulfill the next bit of your life and how you start the next chapter. But just before I ask you those sort of two critical questions, if this episode has given you a bit of clarity or comfort, or just a tip that's made things feel a little bit more manageable, make sure to follow the divorce podcast on your favorite podcast app. Each week we're here with expert advice and real support to help you through your separation one step at a time. So, Buzzy, thinking back uh to the beginning of your separation, what are the things that you'd tell yourself about kicking off that process? How would you go? What would you say to somebody who's right at the beginning? Buzzy Randall 33:34 I think to breathe, which sounds stupid, but I felt that there was no, that I was suffocating, that I was, there was no oxygen in the room, and that everywhere I went sucked the breath out of me, whether it was a conversation with the lawyer or conversations with my family or conversations with my children, or even turning up at the school gates, I was like, oh, this is, and I think actually take a breath, pause, think about the what the next step is is in, okay, I'm gonna go to the school gates and I'm gonna face the mums, or I need to get a lawyer. How do I go about doing it? You know, there is there is panic at every at every corner, but there needn't be. If you just pause, take a breath, and try and stay calm, then you will make better decisions for yourself. And like everything, talk to people because people are a wealth of knowledge. That's how I had found my divorced mental friend. That's how the mums at the school gates will pick me up. It was talking to people and just saying, what advice can you give me? Or do you know a good lawyer? Or what do I do now? And people are more than willing to give their opinion, I can tell you. Kate Daly 35:04 Yeah. Shortage of opinions, absolutely. And then just finally, for someone who perhaps can't yet imagine how they're gonna fulfill the next chapter. So let's say they've started it and they're kind of bordering on where you've been more recently. Um, they can't really get to grits with the next chapter. What would you say to them? So they've bereft because they've lost how they thought things were gonna pan out. How do you go about creating that next chapter for yourself? Buzzy Randall 35:31 Well, I think, and I'm still in the process of doing that, it's about what feels right. And I've done quite a few job interviews, and and then I'm like, this doesn't feel right for me, actually. It feels right on paper, but the reality is something just like listen to your gut. And I was very lucky, and right at the beginning of my career, I knew that I wanted to go into a career of cooking, creativity, and hospitality. I knew that that was the thing that excited me when I woke up in the morning. And I've returned to that place of like, okay, what is it that is gonna fill me with excitement and joy, and I'm gonna be able to give my all, not okay, what's gonna give me the biggest salary because I'm in complete panic about my finances, or what is gonna give me the biggest sense of ego because I feel like I've got no self-confidence or no ego as a result of what's happened. It's about listening to your gut and saying, okay, actually, what is gonna be right for me, not what's right for my children, not what's right for my dogs or my house or my finances, what's right for me, for me feeling good about myself. Kate Daly 36:47 It's so interesting. So I'm what I'm taking away from this is that personal growth and resilience that comes after a split. And we did a survey recently as Amicable, and we found something really similar as well. One in four people actually reported that's exactly what you've described now, that sense of feeling that personal growth by focusing on what is right for me. So it's seeing it as an opportunity to reconnect with yourself and understand a bit more about yourself. So I think that's such a positive note to end on. I know if you're listening to this and you're at the beginning of it or in the middle of it, you know, you might not be feeling as optimistic as Buzzy and I talking about it. But there is hope and there is light at the end of the tunnel, and there is an opportunity to look deep inside yourself and find that personal growth and resilience after a split. So, Buzzy, I can only thank you tremendously for sharing your growth story with us today. It's been absolutely amazing. Where can people find out more information about you? Buzzy Randall 37:53 Well, I have my own podcast, as you've been a guest on with Amicable. So you can listen to um our stories, The Big D with Ate and Buzzy, which is actually morphing into the big D presents, uh, where we'll have lots of new guests and um a whole new season where we have um a similar just a conversation about divorce and about breakups. And I mean, this is where Amicable is so amazing, is that it's not, it doesn't all have to be hideous. It can be done nicely and calmly. And and that's why I loved our conversation with you. Um so anyone could listen to that episode either with Amicable or on the big D. I'm on Instagram and yeah. Happiness. Kate Daly 38:38 And don't forget, for separation and co-parenting support, you can visit amicable.co.uk where you can explore our resources or book a free advice consultation. You can find me on LinkedIn and Instagram, and you can hear about new podcast episodes by subscribing for updates and visiting thedivorsepodcast.com or find us on your favourite listening platform. Now we'd love to know how we can help further, so please share questions on divorce separation and co-parenting with us at hello at amicable.co.uk, as we're always looking for ideas for new episodes, and they very well might just point us in a new direction that we haven't yet covered. So please do that. You can also join our subscription platform called amicable apace, and there you can find our community forum, which is a safe place to ask anything at all as you go through separating or co-parenting. Members get free access to our monthly Q&A webinars with amicable's divorce specialists, and you can ask questions in real time on that platform. The link to sign up is going to be in the episode description, so please go there for further information. Buzzy, what a joy it's been. Thank you ever so much for joining me, and thank you everybody for listening. Thanks, Kate.