The psychology of heartbreak at any age, with Jemma Sbeg

Jemma Sbeg 0:00 I really do like want to run into my ex and be like, can I just say thank you? Yeah. And I actually did have a moment, probably like a year ago, where I saw him on the street when I was in Sydney, and I we both kind of looked back at each other and there was just this gratitude. And it was just this deep gratitude. We I could just see it in our eyes of like, oh my God, it's you. Kate Daly 0:26 Welcome to The Divorce Podcast, where we explore all aspects of ending relationships, separation, and parenting apart. If your marriage or partnership has ended, or you have friends and family who are separating, this podcast is for you. I'm Kate Daly, a relationship counselor, divorce specialist, and co-founder of amicable, the online legal service for separating couples. In each episode, we look at relationships and separation from different angles, including the emotional, legal, and social. I'm joined by experts and special guests who share their own unique stories, experience and tips, with the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder and better way. This week I'm delighted to be joined by Jemma Sbeg. Jemma is a host of a groundbreaking globally recognised podcast, The Psychology of Your 20s. She's author of Person in Progress and also a mental health advocate. The psychology of your 20s began back in 2021 after Jemma went through her first real heartbreak and was looking for a guide to all the confusing and chaotic feelings she was experiencing. It wasn't just the breakup though. There were so many other experiences she was having as a 20-something that she wished she had some explanation for. Nobody would give her the straight-up science, and all the self-help content she found seemed to be opinion-based. And so the psychology of your twenties was born, with her first ever episode fittingly titled The Psychology of Imposter Syndrome, which remains one of the most downloaded episodes to date. It's lovely to see you. And just a bit of context then. So I was saying in the intro, the whole podcast series was sparked by your own kind of first heartbreak story. So if you don't mind, start by just telling us a little bit about what was happening for you at that point. Jemma Sbeg 2:38 It's so funny because we were just kind of talking about this before we started, which was that this was the tail end of COVID and lockdowns. And essentially, this was the first, like, I think big adult relationship I'd had where, you know, parental supervision wasn't really part of it. You know what I mean? Like you're it's your first love. Like it was my first big love that was like out of high school. And we had all those like delusional beliefs of like we're gonna move in together and like we're gonna get married, and we're gonna like start a family. But I was so young and it inevitably it didn't work out. Uh, I think these days I was literally talking to our my intern yesterday, where I was like, one day you're gonna be so grateful for your own experience like this. And and now I definitely have that feeling of just like gratitude towards him and that experience because it created the psychology of your of your 20s. But I don't know, breakups are always difficult, especially I think well, they were always difficult, but that first one, yeah, oh my gosh. You feel it, don't you? Kate Daly 3:43 You feel it in a way you just don't feel any of the others, even if subsequent relationships are kind of more important in the long term. That first one when you're feeling everything for the first time is really unique, isn't it? Jemma Sbeg 3:54 Yeah. And I think like subsequent breakups or divorces or marriage breakdowns or relationship breakdowns, if you've had one before, like you kind of understand, hopefully, like this will get better. Even if you can't really imagine it, there is always some part of you that's like, I but I kind of know it will because I've done this before. I know the script. Yeah, but the first one you're like, so this is my reality for the rest of my life. I'm just gonna be this heartbroken person and nobody's ever gonna love me again. And yeah, and I also I have this deep theory that your experience in your first breakup really dictates like how you go forth in other relationships and breakups as well. Kate Daly 4:31 That's super interesting, isn't it? Yeah. You use the word inevitably when you were describing how you went through this breakup. Is it inevitable that you almost have to practice a few before you get it right in terms of relationships? Do you think? Jemma Sbeg 4:49 See, I don't know because I have so many wonderful people in my life who've been with each other. They were like they were each other's kind of first. Do you mean in terms of like you have to practice, you have to try a couple of relationships on? Kate Daly 5:00 Or yeah, because she kind of said inevitably, it broke down. And I was just intrigued by the use of the word inevitably. So is there a 20-something script that says these first relationships are destined to break down and it takes you a bit of time before you find the right person? Or is it a question of, well, actually, for some people that's not the case, it is love at first sight and they stay the course. Jemma Sbeg 5:25 I think for that my use of the word inevitable was like, I think about that relationship, and it's only with hindsight that you can be like, that was never going to be it. And when you're in the relationship, it's like you really cannot see the forest from the trees in terms of like whose baggage is whose, and you know, what is life-changing or relationship ending and what isn't. And only outside of a relationship sometimes do I think you can you see, like, yeah, the baggage he was bringing in, the baggage I was bringing in, just the kind of people we were. Like, it just wasn't ever going to really work out. But I do think some people just get really lucky. I have two of two of my best friends met when they were 16, they're now like 35, 36. They've been together for essentially their entire adult lives. And I always say, I know this as like somebody in my 20s still, I always like say to my listeners and people younger than me, I'm like, it's so good to be friends with people who are a decade ahead because you just get this like sense of like, oh my god, it's all gonna be okay. And I always look at their relationship and I'm like, wow, I really hope that I'm in love with my partner the way that they are. And it their relationship gives me so much hope. So I think it's like it's not the person, it's the relationship that you find yourself in. And some relationships I think will always end, and some just won't. And some people find the one that won't very, very early. Kate Daly 6:47 I guess from the divorce podcast perspective, it's unusual for us to have a 20-something on because divorce tends to happen to people who are a bit older. But ultimately, this podcast is kind of, I hope, a bit of a beacon for anybody going through the end of a relationship or the breakdown of a relationship. What do you think you wish you'd known in retrospect when you went through that first breakup? And do you think that's something that would help at any breakup stage? Or is it just something that's unique to being a young person? Jemma Sbeg 7:21 See, that's that's such an interesting question. I think there are some uh very universal pieces of advice, right, that people can give. And that I kind of almost feel silly giving somebody who might be have 20, 30, maybe 40 years on me. But I I do think that every relationship does inevitably give you something to be grateful for, whether it's you like your kids, whether it's like a better sense of what you don't want in a relationship, but also like memories, you know, maybe the first time you've ever felt safe, like just good feelings, happiness. And I I went through a couple of other breakups in my like early 20s, and now I'm with somebody who, I don't know, God willing, is the one, and I feel like he is. And I think even I see my my sisters or family members or friends going through these similar situations, and I do think like at the end of the day, there is always at least one thing you can take from a from a breakup or a relationship breakdown that is a good thing for you. And sometimes if that that just has to be the life raft for a little bit, whilst like the rest of the picture gets colored in with more stuff, it's like okay, everything else can be terrible. I could have lost everything, but at least I have this, at least this relationship gave me this, and like I will probably soon realize how much more it has given me or how much more I'm capable of without that person, like as time goes on. Kate Daly 8:45 Well, some of those things that you talk about I think are pretty universal. That sense of having to rediscover yourself. If you've been in a marriage for 20 odd years and you're not used to being on your own, that fear of being on your own, I think that's really palpable, isn't it? Because sometimes it doesn't matter what age you are, you've still got to relearn to be on your own, even if you've only been together for a short time, you've picked up habits, you've lost the sense of self. Maybe you got together quite young and you hadn't developed your full identity and your sense of self. So in your 20s, that search for identity and that growth after the end of a relationship, I think that is quite universal because whether you're in your 30s, your forties, your 50s, your 60s, or your 70s, at the end of a relationship, you've got to go back and do that work again, haven't you? And you've, like you say, you've learned something, you've been able to take something, you're a changed person because of the relationship. So I think I think that's a fairly universal feeling. Jemma Sbeg 9:48 Yeah, the enmeshment. I think there's this sense of like people like, well, you know, you should know who you are outside of your partner. Like you should know, even should. You should. We don't like should words, do we as therapists? You should. Like, what do you mean? Like you have to rediscover who you are. Like this person lost themselves to a relationship. No, even a healthy level of dependency will still, like, when the relationship ends, it's gonna hurt. And I remember I had a therapist at the time when I went through like another large breakup in my 20s, who was essentially like, you and this person, if you've imagined a future together, you've attached to them, and you're like Velcro. And the longer a piece of Velcro kind of sticks together, and the more forces that push it together, the harder it's going to be to rip it apart. And she was like, even like a relationship that lasted for three months, like if you committed to each other, if you were like, Yes, I'm and you were excited and you saw potential and you shared and you were vulnerable, like there's still gonna be that that sound or that feeling of tearing apart that's gonna make you feel like, oh my god, but where is this other side? Like, there is this like emptiness to me. And see, I actually find the the rediscovering part this I don't know if this is like a controversial take, but I genuinely think that I would not be the person I am without breakups, and I honestly find them such a sacred experience, and hopefully I never go through one again because I am a big fan of my of my partner and I think he's great, but there is some part of me that's like, wow, there is something very spiritual and very like self-knowing that like happens when you go through a breakup. It's awful, feels terrible, but then there's a lot of like it's like one of the only times you can be selfish. Do you know what I mean? It's one of the only times when like your friends and your family are gonna be like, you know, leave her be like she's going through a breakup or like he's going through a permission to be a bit ragged. Yes, yeah. And like with that selfishness, and obviously when you go through a breakup in your 20s, like you've got even more permission because people just kind of expect you to like not really have a clue yet. But there is very few times in your life where you can just kind of make a mess and just like really do what you want to do. And after a breakup is one of them, and it's kind of marvelous for just discovering what you do and don't like and what you want to do and what you don't want to do. I like found out so much about myself during that time that I'm now like very, very grateful for. Kate Daly 12:16 I think that point you make, essentially all roads lead to here, don't they? And without the experiences, we wouldn't be who we are. I think that's a really human way of looking at things and a really valuable thing to take out of any of the sort of crap life throws at you ultimately. I'm gonna push you on something you said just then, and I totally appreciate this. It's a bit of a mean question because your partner may well listen to this, but you're in your twenties, you'll probably live till you're in your 90s. Yeah, so you've got 60, 70 years. As a 20-something, do you think a relationship will last that long? Jemma Sbeg 12:53 See, I used to really obsess over this a lot because I had a lot of anxiety about my relationship. I was like very obsessive about these questions, and then I just realized that it doesn't really matter. I know that sounds strange, but I was like, whether the relationship will or will not dissolve in the future, right now it's it's what's right, and right now it's really, really working. And I also think, I don't know, I just have this, I think this optimism, but also this realism that like, you know what, maybe it won't. But it will hopefully not be something that like I chose without really thinking about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, and maybe something will come between us. We we actually talk about this quite a bit of like, oh my gosh, imagine what if this happened to us? What if we're 50 and we have kids and one of our, this is quite dark, so apologies, but one of our children, you know, passes away. Do you think that would come between? And we actually have a lot of these chats, or you know, what happens when one of our parents, you know, passes away, or what happens if if this happens or this happens or a natural disaster? And I think we are always like, yeah, we'll totally make it through that. But sometimes you just don't know. But is he like the absolute right and best person for me right now? Yes. And do I have quite an optimistic idea of love? Probably yes as well, because I've seen so many, I guess, relationships in my family like really work out. Kate Daly 14:14 So you have a good sense of role modeling then in terms of relationships around you, and also role modeling in terms of relationships where like people are quite honest that like they had hard times. Yes, you've got to work at it. You believe in the hard work ethic. And it's interesting to hear you say that you kind of try and think through some of the potential problems rather than I think a lot of people probably just don't go there, don't think about it, shut it out. I guess that's why so many people don't make wills or don't have prenups or you don't have together agreements and all that kind of thing. Because they're just blind optimism, but it feels like there's a realism to the relationship. Jemma Sbeg 14:51 Well, that might just be because we're a little bit weird, right? And I think we also just love the hypothetical game. We're like, what about this and what about that? But I don't know. I just I used to be so like I said, I used to worry about it so much, and now I'm like, but if there comes a point where we're not happy, then we're not happy. Like and all you really have is like the present, and like you just have to really enjoy it. And it's funny, like we had a really sorry, not to go too deep into my personal life, but like this year was had a lot of stuff happening. We moved countries, there was unemployment, there was health things, there was, you know, all this other stuff, like the death of pets and all these things, and it all kind of happened, like major life events, and it was very, very difficult. And then we've like come out of that at the end of that period and been like, wow, like we really like each other. And like, I'll be like really, I'm like really surprised we like really just push through that. And I'm just like, well, maybe like when we're in our 30s or 40s or 50s, like we'll come across those issues again and we won't come through them. And I maybe there's a lot of people listening to this who are at that stage and are like, what is this girl talking about? She has no idea what's coming for her. But I don't know. I think it's nice to not to just find a way to not worry about it in advance. It's just any form of anxiety, right? Like if it happens, it happens. Kate Daly 16:04 Yeah. Jemma Sbeg 16:05 But it probably won't in the form you think it will. Kate Daly 16:07 But also, what strikes me as we're talking is as life has moved on and as we've got more psychologically aware, I guess, of how relationships form, how they're maintained, and how they end. I think what I hear in what you're saying in your story is that there's a real kind of sense of realism that the relationship takes work. It's you don't just kind of form a relationship, forget about it, and just let life bombard you. It sounds like you work at it, you think about it, you entertain the possibility it will end, not because you're not optimistic about it, but because you're a realist and you understand that that is technically a possibility. And in some ways, that's part of what makes a healthy relationship, isn't it? And I wonder whether you know things will happen with the way people separate and the divorce rates and everything else as new generations move through. Because I don't think, for example, say my generation even, I don't think we were as thoughtful about getting into a relationship as perhaps this generation is. I think it was much more a this is just what you do. And we were sort of in a generation where we were still emulated and expected culturally to follow our parents, which is you marry for life and that's the end of it. And I don't know whether you sense there's a different contract, psychological contract, cultural contract, or whether or not. Jemma Sbeg 17:37 I think about this all the time, and I really do think there is, but I think it's more so at the beginning point where the rate of new relationships is a lot lower. And you'll hear there every like single week there is an article in some newspaper that's like young women won't date young men anymore, or like people aren't going on dates. I literally think I read one in the New York Times like this morning that was like, we have a courtship problem, we have a dating problem, businesses are going out at like first date spots, going out of business, nobody's dating anymore. And I think that's the thing is that we are more cautious of like, am I going to be healed before I step into this? And I also think we are at a stage where being single is actually not worse, doesn't leave you worse off than being in a relationship. Yeah, it's okay. It's being made okay to be single. Kate Daly 18:26 Yeah. Jemma Sbeg 18:26 And it's not just like like mentally and psychologically, we are not as distraught by the fact. Although I know like being single can be very hard around like especially like in your late 20s, early 30s when everybody's getting married and having kids, or you know, around the holidays, whatnot, but there are so many things where it's like, okay, so you're not going to be completely ostracized. People aren't going to send you to a workhouse, or like, yeah, do you know what I mean? Or like you could there's like you can have kids by yourself, and like there's all these other things that like previously like single people didn't have as many kind of, I would even say kind of rights as like people who were married, especially if you were a woman, like you couldn't vote. Like you can't you couldn't have you couldn't have a credit card. Yeah, a mortgage, yeah. Or a mortgage. I will say though, like there definitely is still something to be said for the fact that like single people often have to pay more for a phone plan, more for like private health care, like obviously all the things that are great, like you know, owning a pet, you both enjoy the pet equally, but you you split it, and then when you're you know what I mean, all these things, like obviously there is a is there there is still a single tax, but I just feel like especially for women as well, your quality of life is no longer dictated by like whether you are wed. And so if like the bar isn't or people aren't meeting your standard, why why do it? Why deliberately lower it for yourself just to kind of fill a void that society says you should? So I'm seeing it a lot in in my own friendships where it's like people take a lot more care when entering a relationship, people are uh a lot more likely to break up pretty quickly. If it does if it's looking like it's not gonna work, yeah. Or or go distance. Like I think maybe when I I think like, but I obviously I wasn't around then, but I would say like the majority of relationships that I see either last like two months or like 10 years. Kate Daly 20:23 Okay. So there's quite a polarization of relationships. Jemma Sbeg 20:26 And obviously they all fall in the middle, but it's like, and maybe that's just my my perspective. But I think a lot of people are like, well, if this relationship isn't like really gonna isn't gonna work out for me, and obviously I've had some friends who broke up after a year, two years, three years, but I think there's a hesitancy to be in a place that you don't want to be in if you don't really see like a future with this person, like a serious one. Kate Daly 20:46 And I guess if you're in a marriage versus in a relationship, in this country at the moment, there are very different rights, and the government's currently consulting on giving rights to cohabiting couples. Whereas in Australia, where you're from, you've had those rights for a long time. Do those rights impact the way relationships are formed? Do you get a sense of that? Honestly, not really. Jemma Sbeg 21:10 I feel like it's just it just is what it is. Like it just is how we understand it. I think there's always this, like, when you first move in with somebody, you know, people will always bring up this other stuff of like, well, you know that once you do that, like you might have to split things or all this kind of stuff. But I think it's I think it's it doesn't really change that that much. I'd be so interested to because I just take those laws for granted. And I know some of the ones you're referring to, but I'm like, oh, I wonder if they will impl implement them here. And the benefits are like pretty good as well. Like some people don't want to get married, I think a lot and it seems strange that if their partner of 30 years were to pass or if you know a a breakup was to happen and you'd built a life together, but there just wasn't a ring or a piece of paper, that like you kind of wouldn't be entitled to half of that life or some part of that life you built together. Kate Daly 21:58 Well, I think especially if you've made decisions. Yes. Based on being in a partnership that have effectively economically disadvantaged one of you, it feels very unfair that that's not taken into account just because, like you say, you don't have a band around your finger or a piece of paper. Jemma Sbeg 22:13 Imagine moving like for 10 years for somebody's job. Yeah. And then nothing. Kate Daly 22:18 Yeah. And then nothing. Jemma Sbeg 22:19 It's like, well, what? Yeah. I think it just makes it more fair to be honest. Kate Daly 22:23 Yeah. No, I think you're right. Do you think there's, you know, the psychological process when you go through a breakup? I think certainly some of the research I did when I was looking at this, to me, there are certain jobs, if for want of a better word, that you have to do psychologically when you go through a breakup. What do you think those kind of key milestones are as you go through that recovery process? Jemma Sbeg 22:48 See, I always used to describe it as like three waves. I think a lot of people know that to name Elizabeth Cubularossa's five stages of grief. Although I think they're really retiring that model these days for heartbreak. But essentially it's like you you go through shock, denial, anger, but uh well my god, I've forgotten them. Shock, denial, anger, bargaining, grief acceptance. Yeah, yeah, acceptance. Anger, acceptance. Yeah. They all get mushed up in my mind. But I kind of see it as like three waves where it's like the first wave is the shock wave of like, and it's the first attempt at coping. So you are typically like, this isn't happening. And I know for me, I was like, it took me like four months to be like actually cry about my relationship ending. And then similar for like I had another long-term relationship in like my mid-20s, and I it's the same thing. And I think that first period is like shock. And then also you're like, okay, I'm gonna bury this feeling. So a lot of people will like go out and club, they'll like maybe have a rebound, they'll like change everything about themselves, they'll like really have this first moment of like, oh my god, I'm and they'll be riding this high of like, no, I think I'm actually doing really well. I think I'm actually doing really well. And then writers, you're like, okay, cool. So I've like avoided this, haven't I? It's like you get wave two. And wave two is like the sincere inner work of like, oh, so what does this make me feel about my own worth? And am I, am I unlovable? And is it I actually really miss this person? Did I make a mistake? Was this kind of relationship inevitable in terms of like my relationship with my parents? Was like, you know, you get all these like really deep questions of like, oh, like I actually have to sit with this. And I think people who don't do that stage end up just perpetrating, like, not perpetrating, but perpetuating that those same kind of wounds. And then in that stage is like where the real grief kind of hits you, and you're like, oh, I feel really miserable. I really feel like this is no end in sight. And then getting through that is when you get to the third phase of like, oh, I I kind of know myself a little bit better now. I have created a sense of closure for myself, I have better boundaries around this person, I'm not thinking about them all the time, and maybe I'm ready to date somebody else. And I think where I like this kind of model of like the the three waves is that it could happen all in two months. Like somebody could go through three waves in two months, somebody it could take three years, but you have to do all of them. And if you get stuck or if you stall yourself at one of those points, like you won't perhaps feel ready to date again. So somebody who really gets stuck in that grief period at the beginning will just feel awful and just won't be able to or get stuck in like the rebound, the rebound, the rebound without ever actually examining like how they really feel about the relationship will inevitably stay there. And it's the same with somebody who gets really stuck in like any of those periods. You could go through them very quickly, very slowly, but the ultimate third wave is where you find like a sense of catharsis and healing. And I'm sure everybody who's been through a relationship can kind of relate to that third wave of like you can be stuck in the first and second wave for a while, and then it's like four years later, and you're like going for a walk, and you're like, I just actually haven't thought about them all day. Yeah. And isn't that like one of the best feelings you can have as a human? You're like, oh well, I forgot to be upset today. Oh yeah. And then you're like, am I over this? And it's like, oh, maybe I'm not, maybe it will come back, but and and you know, there'll be these little, I guess, tremors. But I don't know, is that been your experience? Do you do you see that same kind of cycle of a relationship breakdown of of recovering from a relationship breakdown? Kate Daly 26:32 Yeah, I think when I was researching all of this and I looked at lots of different therapeutic models, interviewed lots of different therapists about their models to try and see if there was a kind of a universal thing that was underpinning it, because everyone describes their model differently, don't they? And everyone wants to use a different word. And I was kind of thinking, is there something really different between a CBT approach to relationship breakdown or a psychodynamic approach or whatever? So one of the things that I found was that there's that chaos at the beginning. You've called it the shockwave, but there is a sense of chaos. And if you're in therapy, that's about finding a therapist, it's about building the relationship with the therapist. It's like when you go and have a 15-minute session of crying and literally nothing else, and going back over the same stuff and going, then he said this, and then I did that. You know, it's that kind of stage, and it just goes. There's a need for catharsis and calming the chaos. So that was kind of my first universal way or stage. I think then there's the bit where the job involved is separating yourself from the relationship. So, you know, that bit when, and I think when you're younger, that's actually harder to do because you've got less lived experience. So you are the relationship. Everything is about you. And actually, when you're going through relationship breakdown, you're a bit older, you can sometimes see that it's about the dynamic of people coming together that's created the issue. You can tolerate and hold the fact that you're both lovely people, but together you it doesn't work, or something has happened in that communication style or whatever. When you're younger, I think it's easier to personalise it. It's part of finding your identity. So there's that work of separating self and relationship that goes on. And then I think it's more about the learning you've got from it, the reflection, when you've got that, when you've calmed that chaos, you've separated what's you, your personality, what's the relationship. And that's the bit when you're doing that work where you're effectively trying to create boundaries, ensure you don't repeat mistakes or things that didn't work. But when you get to that third stage, for me, it's more then about, you know, who am I, what do I want, that identity piece that comes back again, and that that's where you consolidate what you've taken from the relationship into who you're going to be moving forward as well. So you can take some of the good stuff and move forward with it. So yeah, I think it it does come in waves, and I think it is more interesting to see it as those waves. And also, I don't think it's always necessarily a linear process. You can be thinking you've gone through wave one and wave two and then go right back to wave one because something else happens. So I think just seeing it as a process that will unfold, that you can't rush, you can do things that maybe give you some deeper experience that effectively can help you. But I think it takes its own time. I think that's yeah. Jemma Sbeg 29:33 I also think all these models, like the reason we come up with them is because we just don't want to acknowledge that like time actually does. Yeah, time heals. I know I had somebody say this to me once. They were like, oh, everybody has a model, and all we really want to hear is like, how long is it gonna take me? Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing that's like all these models. When will I feel better? When will I feel better? And I think these models are like, and you know, I've got my own of like, well, when you do this and you pass through the candy cane lane, and then and then this happens, and then you sleep with them one more time, and then you go this and then you and it's like, and then that should take this many years. It's like, no, no, no, it just is what it is. Kate Daly 30:07 Like, maybe nobody wants to just say, But I guess I mean, I think one of the dangers with all of this, and why it's so interesting to talk to you as somebody in their twenties, is that it's very easy to say that, you know, oh, when you get married, it's different, it's more complicated. And of course, if you've been in a long-term marriage, there are a lot more of the practical things to sort out. You might have bought properties, you might have savings investments, all of those sorts of things together, kids, everything that complicates a life. And so, of course, those things are harder to deal with and to and to separate and to work through. But I don't know. Do you think there's any real difference between a breakup in your 20s from an emotional perspective and a breakup in your fifth after a 20-year marriage? Do you think you grieve differently or see? I've never experienced the latter. Jemma Sbeg 30:54 So, but and I don't want to and hopefully I don't. I don't know, but maybe I will. I think like at the end of the day, our like capacity for feeling is the same. Like how deeply we can feel as an individual. If you experience something that like really shoots you down to the bottom, like, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't really matter where that happened in your life, with whom or where or what, you feel to the capacity that you were able to feel, and an emotional experience will like kind of basically fill the space that it that it has. I think that I can't imagine the stress though of going through a relationship breakdown or a divorce when you have kids and you suddenly have this entirely other thing. Like you can't, I'm sure people do, but like a part of you can't just, you know, stick two things up and walk off. Exactly. Or be like, I'm gonna go to everybody I know and be like, I hate this guy or this woman or this person, because it's like your kids are there, and the amount of control that that probably takes is like in your 20s, if you go through a breakup, it's definitely gonna hurt, it's definitely gonna upend how you feel about yourself and it's gonna upend your social life and maybe even your finances if you've been with this person for a while or access to a pet or maybe even to kids or things like that. Like I have friends who have kids in their in their 20s who've like, you know, their relationship hasn't worked. Maybe their kids are younger, but it still was like a very awful. I do think though there is something to be said about being in your 20s and without kids and without especially that and being like, okay, cool. So I can just like flip a switch and just like off and just go a little bit crazy. And I can just have a bit more freedom to just be very selfish and be maybe a bit irresponsible that like you feel a bit more guilty about when you get older because you're like, I wish I could just like be irresponsible, but I've got to think about my retirement, or like I wish I could just be irresponsible, but like my children need to still love their father or their mother. I think we call that a midlife crisis. I know our late 40s and early 50s. I know. I know it's like I don't know. I yeah, I I don't know, I can't imagine it. I'm sure it'd be very stressful. Kate Daly 32:59 But I just does it, I wonder if it just sort of hacks you off a bit that it's almost infantilised. Well, of course, you know, it's a 20s relationship, so it doesn't, it doesn't count as much. Whereas of course it counts as much because you've only got the experience you've got at that point. And if I think about it, you know, I've been married and divorced twice and I've had several relationships in between, but those first ones, nothing hurt like that. And that I don't mean that in a flippant way or because I'm speaking to you, but the rawness of it in those early relationship days, and like you say, that inability to know that you're going to be okay because this is all you know, and the pain is overwhelming, and you are able to sit with it and sit in it endlessly because you don't necessarily have all the responsibilities and the time pressures of having a job, a family, and a career and everything else that goes, you know, with later life. But I just, you know, I'm sitting here thinking in my head, oh, what would I rather have? A breakup in my 50s or a breakup in my twenties. And I actually think I'm going for the 50s, right? Yeah. Because I just, and I wonder, I don't know, maybe it's just me. Do you lose the capacity to feel in that way? Do you just lose the psychological space to be able to? I don't want to use the word indulge because it sounds self-indulgent, but to No, I know what you mean. Pleasure, well, not the pleasure, the the pleasure and the pain of really just feeling the depth and and the ability to just be in that moment, yeah, it's it's kind of precious and I wouldn't, it's hard and I wouldn't that to me is much harder than I know what you're saying later. I don't know, maybe you've just got more props later in life, but it's just it feels like it really does. Jemma Sbeg 34:39 Also because it's like if this your first and second breakup, I think you it's very easy to be like, you'll find somebody else, but if you've only ever had this person, or you've only ever had this but like two people, you're like, well no, I'm never going to because I've only ever had two. I like this, or like, you know, I've only ever had this one person. And then also there's just like this interwovenness, especially when like if you've dated somebody in your 20s, there is like a much deeper sense of like, and you've only been through, you know, I think when you've had a longer relationship, you have had those ebbs and flows of like I've gone and done my own things. Whereas, like, if you've been with each other for like, you know, four or five years, it's like everything is you and me. Yeah, you haven't kind of learned the lessons to be like, actually, I need something outside of this. It's just like you're just obsessed with each other, and it's just like everything is you and me, everything is us. Yeah, let's move in together after four months. Like, yeah, let's let's get a dog. Like, okay, let's do it. And it's like, whoa, like I think just the optimism, and then maybe I don't know, not to like hate on my own group, but like the indulgence. Yeah, I actually think there is that. Like, God, when I went through my first breakup and my second, I did things that I just think like you just couldn't get away with as a somebody in their 50s. Like I would show up to work and I would be just like, I don't know, maybe you could, but I'd just be crying and like, I don't know, if you rocked up, somebody would be like, go home. Yeah, take care of business. And when you're in your 20s, it's like, oh, you're like, oh, you're really sad. You're like, God, and you like tell everything you get messy, and like, I just did so much like, and I don't know, it felt pretty, it felt awful, and now I'm like, it felt good in a way, in a weird way, because it was such a human experience with so raw. Kate Daly 36:24 Yeah. I remember my first divorce, I was late 20s, and uh my boss at the time just said to me, Go home because you are no use to me, right? Yeah, what were we doing? What we were doing. Jemma Sbeg 36:37 In the toilet, spending, you know, hours on lunch because I just couldn't face it. And I mean it's just like all that kind of stuff. Kate Daly 36:44 He just said to me, I'd rather you took some time off now and then came back when you were capable of doing the job. Really? Jemma Sbeg 36:51 Yeah, I feel a bit embarrassed now, but actually, that is what kind of imagine if I couldn't do that now. You know, I just you just can't. Kate Daly 36:59 What were you doing for work then? Uh I was working at a big four consultancy firm. Jemma Sbeg 37:04 That's so funny. I also worked as a consultant, and I'm thinking the same thing. Oh my god. Kate Daly 37:09 It's just like you're a liability to ask. Jemma Sbeg 37:11 That's such consulting speakers as well. Okay, yeah, you're not optimizing efficiency. Exactly. There's no synergy between you and the rest of the team. Go and mourn, go away. That's so funny. Kate Daly 37:22 Oh, listen, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you. I really, really enjoyed our conversation. If you were gonna say one thing to people, well, whoever's listening to this, whether they're in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, what's the universal thing that you've taken out of your breakups? Jemma Sbeg 37:40 This is gonna sound so strange, but like make art. And I know that sounds so Did you go on say more? I just feel like you have the most amazing source of inspiration right now. And anytime I've been deeply heartbroken, I almost had like a routine for it because I was such a lover girl. I was always falling in love and like getting my heart just so crushed. And I would always go to where I grew up in Corumbin, in like in Queensland, the most beautiful place on planet earth. Although I'm sure everybody says that, but it's so beautiful, and I would like spend, and this is something you can't do in your 20s, you can't do probably later in life. I'd be like, cool, I'm taking three weeks off. Kate Daly 38:18 Yeah. Jemma Sbeg 38:18 Be like, bye, and I would go and I would like, we had like a family house up there, and and my grandma would often be there, and I would just like make pottery and I would make art. And I made this the podcast that now is my full-time job because of my breakup. And I just wanted a creative outlet, and it's probably my favorite area of research to talk about, which is how phenomenal heartbreak is for creativity and obsession. And you take all that obsession you have with somebody else and you put it into something just for you, and brilliant, brilliant things like come from that. And I don't know, like my podcast, like we're now on Netflix, and that's an insane thing. And sometimes I really do like want to run into my ex and be like, Can I just say thank you? Yeah, and I actually did have a moment probably like a year ago where I saw him on the street when I was in Sydney, and I we both kind of looked back at each other, and there was just this gratitude, and it was just this deep gratitude. We I could just see it in our eyes of like, oh my god, it's you. And I remember when we first broke up, somebody said that to me. They were like, There's gonna come a day. It might be in six months, it might be in six years, ended up being in 10 years, I guess, where you're gonna see him, and it's gonna enough time has passed, and you're gonna be like, Oh, thank God. And I'm so happy and I'm so grateful for you, even if it was awful, and even if we both did things that were bad, and like, and we like had that moment, so we didn't talk or anything, but it was just like this really it's like a movie. Kate Daly 39:50 Wow. Jemma Sbeg 39:50 So this is amazing, it sounds lovely. Kate Daly 39:53 Where can people find more about you? And I guess anyone who's like under 30 will know exactly where to find you. But if there are people who are listening and are just interested in terms of getting a different perspective and and hearing some of your stories around your own heartbreak and much wider topics, tell us a little bit about where we can find you. Jemma Sbeg 40:11 Well, you can find me at the psychology of your twenties, wherever you get your podcasts. I will say a lot of not all of our audience is in their 20s. I would say we a lot of people are in their 30s, 40s, and beyond, actually. Kate Daly 40:22 It's a good window into kind of another bit of cultural life, I think. Jemma Sbeg 40:26 Oh, yeah, maybe. I would I often am like I feel like a foyer when I listen to your stuff. Do you really? Yeah, so yeah. Like sneakily listening, thinking, okay. What are they thinking about those insecure 20 substantials? Kate Daly 40:38 You know, I've my kids are 17 and 19, so I've got one coming up for 20. So it's kind of you wanna, it's a good source of being kind of prepared without having to ask them the direct questions, but just have a feeling like you've got a little bit more of an insight into their world. Jemma Sbeg 40:53 I hear that a lot actually. I get a lot of messages from parents being like, me and my daughter listen to you when we talk about it. And I'm like, God, it makes me want to cry when I get those messages. I'm like, oh, thanks, that's so nice. But yeah, the psychology of your 20s. Um, you can watch it on Netflix if you like video podcasts. You can follow us on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast, where we share a lot of stuff about the 20s, but also a lot of stuff about your psychology, and we really dive into the into the research, and we also have a sub stack where we do the same thing. Kate Daly 41:23 I love the fact that you're science-based and that it's not just like random opinions, but you've got a real kind of passion for making sure it's good quality information that goes out there. Jemma Sbeg 41:33 I wish I wasn't, you know, sometimes I see those opinion-based ones. I'm like, God, that would be so much fun to just be like because it's very clickable as well, isn't it? Kate Daly 41:39 So sometimes it's really hard to get it right. Jemma Sbeg 41:41 Just be like, I'm gonna tell you a paper from 1998, and there was 20 people, and this was their scientific method. It's like not as catchy, but yeah, better, I think. Kate Daly 41:49 It's good. Yeah, it's really good. For separation and co-parenting support, you can visit amicable.co.uk where you can explore our resources or book a free advice consultation. And of course, you can find me on LinkedIn and Instagram and hear about new podcast episodes by subscribing for updates and visiting thedivorsepodcast.com or find us on your favourite listening platform. Now, we'd love to know how we can help you further, so please share questions on divorce, separation, and co-parenting with us at hello at amicable.co.uk. They might just be the topic of future episodes. Don't forget as well, you can also join our subscription platform, Amicable Space, where you'll find our community forum, a safe place to ask anything as you go through separation or co-parenting. Members also get access to our monthly QA webinars with amicable divorce specialists, and you can ask them any questions in real time. The link to sign up is in the episode description. Thank you, Jemma, ever so much for today. It's been brilliant talking to you. And thank you, everyone, for listening.