In brief: Can AI write your consent order?

Lucy Huscroft 0:00 I think the pitfalls of using a tool like AI to draft a content order is AI is a little bit like a Labrador, so it likes to try and please you. And that's the temptation of using it because you like what it says, but occasionally it can get it quite wrong. Kate Daly 0:22 Welcome to the Divorce Podcast, where we explore relationships, divorce, separation, and parenting apart. This episode is part of our mini-series where we answer your questions, discuss current news and events, and share practical bite-sized tips. I'm your host, Kate Daly, a relationship counsellor, divorce specialist, and co-founder of Amicable, the online legal service for separating couples. This week I'm delighted to be joined by Hugo Austen, Head of Product at Amicable, and Lucy Huscroft, negotiation specialist at Amicable, to talk about using AI to draft your own consent order and the pros and the pitfalls of that idea. Welcome both. Lucy Huscroft 1:04 Thank you, Kate. Kate Daly 1:04 Hi, Kate. Lovely to see you both. Thanks so much for joining me. So this is a bit of an Amicable Love In today, and we're going to talk about consent orders and the impact of doing your own consent order through AI. But before we jump into that with lots of debate, let's just unpick it a little bit and start, Lucy, with what's a consent order? Lucy Huscroft 1:25 Yeah, so a consent order is a legal order made by the court. Typically, it's about two spouses who are separating their finances, and the court can make that order at the conditional order stage. At that point, the court approves an order that the customers or the wife and husband have put to the court, encompassing all their financial agreement. And at the end, typically speaking, it has a clean financial break on both capital assets and income assets. So it really does draw a line in the sand upon everybody's finances so they know how to move forward independently. Kate Daly 2:04 Right. So it's seen as a good thing to make sure you've got everything settled and sorted. It's legally binding. People can't go back on it, change their minds, unpick it. It's done and dusted. And that's that's what an order does for you. It creates that, as you said, what we call a clean break. It means it's done. No one can go backwards. Yes. It's very certain. Okay. And so it's better to have a consent order and you have to get that drafted traditionally by a solicitor. Now amicable's here. You don't have to go to a solicitor. You can have it drafted through the amicable process. It's still legally binding. It passes through the court in the same way that any other order would be drafted and passes through the court. But now there's a new kid on the block and it's not even a human, it's AI. And it sounds like the temptation is for lots of people to use AI to draft a consent order so they can cut out having to pay someone else to do it. So, Hugo, what does AI do when it comes to consent orders or what can it do? Hugo Ostyn 3:08 Thank you, Kate. So I think what it can do. So first when we talk about AI, like AI can mean anything. Like you have Cloud, you have ChatGPT, you have pretty much AI in everything we do, you know, in Google. So I think what when people are going to AI for the consent order, normally they would go to ChatGPT, ask it a few questions, and try and think see what the AI says. So what it's really good at usually, AI, like as a generic use case, I think, is help you build a narrative. So as in you write something for some information and it will polish it and it will frame it in a way that works. So in that sense, I think that's a big part of consent order with Box 13, where you have to explain why you've put you're suggesting that separation of the assets. And so AI is pretty good at helping you frame that in a way that will be and make sense to the courts. I think it works quite well as well as the sounding board. So like people will go and put something they're not sure about and like ask AI question and like AI to call through it. And I think that works quite well for that, for that purpose. So there are two use cases where I think AI works really well on COSET order. Kate Daly 4:10 So you mentioned that box 13. So for people who are maybe at the beginning of this process not quite familiar, when you submit a consent order, you also have to submit a form called a D81. And in that D81 form, there's a box, box 13, that asks you why you think the settlement you are proposing to the court is fair. So I guess what you're saying is you can put in your reasons and then you can ask AI to say, does that seem fair? And what do I need to understand about how the law works to know what the law considers fair rather than just what me and my ex think is fair? Hugo Ostyn 4:46 Exactly. That's what's something we've used internally to try and poke holes through the argument. And it's pretty good that that based on case law, it will try and find uh gaps in your in your arguments. Kate Daly 4:55 So then, both of you, where does the AI fall down then? Is it as good as a human at drafting a consent order, or what are some of the pitfalls that people need to be wary of before they all go off and get their AI drafted consent orders? Lucy Huscroft 5:11 Yeah, I think the pitfalls of using a tool like AI to draft a consent order is AI is a little bit like a Labrador, so it likes to try and please you. And that's the temptation of using it because you like what it says, but occasionally it can get it quite wrong. And there have been sort of cases in court of people using AI to draft things like statements, and it has hallucinated case law. And I think most recently there were two solicitors who found some costs against them because they had used AI to help draft position statements. So that's the risk. And if you think about a broad statement, a statement can be drafted by a person not easily. Obviously, it requires legal expertise, but an order is even more intricate and tricky and complex because it has different functions within it. So to layer that on top and then to ask Chat GPT or Claude to create a consent order for you, it may go off on a tangent based upon the prompts or the instructions that you've given it that aren't quite right. And if you're asking the court to make that order and they make that order as a result, you may be left with something that possibly isn't what you wanted it to be, essentially. And here you go. Hugo Ostyn 6:31 I would agree with Lucy. I think the way I see AI for consultant, that like there are three types of limitations. The first one, they're inherent to the tool itself. So, like Lucy says, it's very sycophantic. So the study where they ask just by asking the question, like, okay, AI will say something, then you ask it, Are you sure? And in 60% of the cases, it will change its mind. So that gives you a bit of like it will that shows you how confidently it will say things and then how happy it is to change its mind, just without any reason. So there's that. Then there is how you use it as well. So AI, like the two person using the same tool will not use it in the same way. Like, so for example, once you're aware of those limitations, so you know that it will tend to agree with you, then you can counteract that and say, like, please make sure like you you probe into my argument, or like you try and like make sure it goes, it has a more give you a bit more of a negative pushback. So you can like so that's the way that's the first limitation, how you use it and how knowledge how confident you are using it. The other limitation is the information you give it. So regardless of how good AI is, in your consent order, there will be information about your properties, your pensions. If you give it the wrong numbers, it doesn't matter, matter how good it is as writing an archive around those. If they're wrong in the first place, it won't know, it won't have the context. So that's the other limitation. And the third one, I think, is domain knowledge. So if you're not a legal expert, you do not know like, well, it might sound very good and it might sound like it's perfectly drafted, but you do not know what you don't know. So without the domain knowledge, you have no way of checking that what I has written is actually relevant to what the court is expecting. So I think, yeah, those three limitations really are the one I've come across the most when using it. Kate Daly 8:11 And I guess the the thing that on that second reason, you're right, you could be putting huge amounts of very personal data out there, aren't you? If you're putting, I mean, to draft consent orders, you need a lot of personal information. You need names, addresses, you need numbers off your bank statement, you need the numbers off your accounts, sometimes you need car registration number plates. There's all sorts of personal information that needs to go into a consent order. So I guess, you know, the other note of caution to sound is that are you really happy giving away all of this personal information at this point? Because that to me feels quite scary. Hugo Ostyn 8:54 Absolutely. And I think they've seen so all the what one setting, especially if you're using the free version of ChatGPT, is that they will use your conversations for training. Now, as a I would trust them to like not just leak absolutely everything you put there, but that doesn't mean that one small bit you're like some clever hacker might find a way to get your information. So one thing, for example, that people had found was the software developers were uh were using it to code to build a website, they would use AI to kind of have them write code. And one thing they figured is they noticed was that AI, when they started typing password, the AI was seemingly autocomplete, the password to some pre-existing one, which no one knows it for. So like whether it's actually was a real password or not, I'm not sure. But there are this kind of like warring sounds like, oh, maybe it's not fully uh secluded to what to my conversation. So yes, I think it's uh by default, it's better to be cautious. Kate Daly 9:48 And Lisi, I think you were saying as well, weren't you, that you know, it takes a lot of expertise to actually be able to draft a consent order properly because you're layering on precedents that have been set. You're looking at the individual circumstances and why they might depart from something that the court or the case law would say was the norm. And we're trying to create something that's very bespoke and individual to families, which I know you feel really passionately about. So I guess that's another area of concern, isn't it? Is that you get something quite generic that might not suit your circumstances. And then, as you say, if the court seals it, there are very few options for unpicking that you might be left with something that has unintended consequences. Lucy Huscroft 10:34 Yeah, and with each part of an order, when I explain them, I see a consent order as a bit like a book. So it's got an introduction, which is the definitions and the introductory bits. It's got a plot, which is the undertakings and the orders, and then it's got a conclusion, which is the clean break, hopefully order capital and income. But all of those different functions have different legal meanings in terms of enforceability. So not only could it completely get something wrong, you could think that you've come to a legally binding agreement upon a particular aspect of your agreement, but it might not be in the right place in relation to that book. It may be in the recitals. And I mean, even in the recitals, they can sometimes be legally binding, sometimes they can't. They're a bit of a uh a sort of when you look at them, if you are legally trained, you would know whether the court could enforce that. She know whether it could be legally enforced later on. But equally, if you were a layperson asking AI, it may not quite understand parts of your agreement that you want to be legally tight, depending upon the prompt that you give it. Whereas if you're talking to somebody amicable or you're talking to a solicitor, they would be able to tell you how the order works and the sort of general functions of the order. Whereas AI may miss that point, creating again confusion and unenforceable clauses within the order that you didn't want. And like you say, they're very tailored towards individual family circumstances. So there's no sort of generic consent order as such, because they're all sort of wildly different, unless it is just quite simply a clean financial break, that even that in itself, you know, you are still completing, as you've pointed out, a D81 form. So even that is unique to the people who are entering into it. So to ask a generic site what the answer is is quite tricky. And like I'd say, you wouldn't necessarily know if parts of the order was in the incorrect place unless you were legally trained to understand that. Kate Daly 12:47 I guess ultimately we would say this, wouldn't we? If we're in a legal drafting service, we are going to think that this isn't such a good idea. What's the counterargument to that then? Is it a good idea? Lucy Huscroft 12:58 When is it a good idea? I suppose the counter-argument to that is that the law is meant to be in place so that everybody can use it on an even playing field. So everybody is able to access that, not just somebody who is wealthy or not wealthy. And I suppose AI to a certain extent opens the floodgates for people to have knowledge in hand. I know that they asked ChatGPT if you were to, you know, solve one problem in the whole world, what would it be? And apparently it said, I would make it so that I could explain everything to people on a level that they could understand, because a lot of people misinterpret what is being said. And that's telling, isn't it? That that's you know how it's currently being used and how it could be used. It could be a really positive thing for the future, I think. And I think it's um better to embrace it rather than not, in my opinion. Kate Daly 13:54 And Hugo, from your perspective, what's the case for AI then? Hugo Ostyn 13:58 Yeah, that's what I would say, like similar to what Lucia was saying. So there there is a study recently about what people are using it for, and it's always the same type of topic. So, like medical issues, health issues, psychotherapy, and again, consent orders. Like, I mean, not consent orders as a popular topic, but legal matters. And when you think about what those have in common, like so, first, like it's they're usually expensive if you want to go to a doctor or to a lawyer or psychotherapist. They're sensitive topics, like you don't want to chat to anyone about those, and then they're complex. So I think AI is like an entry point for those topics that have matched the three conditions that can really be helpful to people. Now, as with any tool, it's knowing its limitation and knowing one know actually, like you're not gonna treat your whole disease through Chat GPT. At some point, you need to escalate and actually go to a doctor. So I think it's it's that is kind of knowing, like we should you be using those tools, just being aware of their limitation and when you do need actual expert advice. Kate Daly 14:56 But it sounds like they're, like you say, they're a good starting point. They open the door, they get you on a similar page, they might help you narrow the sort of field of negotiation, I guess, as well, which from our perspective definitely helps if people feel that they're closer together to an agreement before they even come to us. That makes the world a lot easier from our perspective. Super interesting. I'm conscious of time. Now I'm going to ask Hugo and Lucy to give us one top tip for using AI to do these kinds of legal tasks. But just before I do, if this episode has been helpful in any way and given you a bit of clarity or just a bit of comfort or a tip that's made things feel a little bit more manageable, then make sure to follow the Divorce Podcast on your favourite podcast app. Each week we're here with expert advice and real support to help you through your separation one step at a time. Okay, final tips from Lucy and from Hugo. Lucy, just in terms of safeguarding yourself, knowing the limits of AI, when to get an expert, what are your top tips? Lucy Huscroft 16:00 I think my top number one tip would be make sure that your prompts are as detailed as you can possibly make them. And my second tip would be do not use AI at the moment to draft legal documents. Please come and see a professional amicable because there is a high risk of you making an error. And Hugo from you? Hugo Ostyn 16:20 Yeah, a more generic tip for me on using AI, I think, like, and again, one simple phrase that I found goes like helps improve massively the limitation of AI is before getting it to run off and do what you asked it to do is say, ask me clarifying questions, and it will really help with that before it's spinning and running for three minutes and giving you something that you didn't expect. Just asking those will help not only refine your thinking, but also give it a more precise explanation of what it's after. Kate Daly 16:48 I found it it's yeah, day and night when uh that is such a game changer because you told me that tip a little while ago, and it has definitely changed everything I do with AI. And it you're right, because sometimes the biggest part of the process is you're limited by your questions. So actually, when it interrogates what you really want and gets you down to the kind of nth degree of what you're really trying to achieve, you do get a much better response. That's incredible. Well, listen, thank you both. It's been amazing to have that chat with you today. That's all we've got time for. The separation and co-parenting support. Don't forget to visit amicable.co.uk where you can explore our resources or book a free advice consultation. Yes, you can speak to a human for free. No AI here, chaps. You can find me on Instagram and LinkedIn. You can hear about new podcast episodes by subscribing for updates and visiting thedivorsepodcast.com or find us on your favourite listening platform. Now we'd love to hear how we can help you further. So share questions on divorce, separation, and co-parenting with us at hello at amicable.co.uk. And also you can join our subscription platform, Amicable Space, where you'll find our community forum, which is a safe place to ask questions as you go through a separation or co-parenting. Members also get free access to our monthly QA webinars with amicable divorce specialists just like Lucy. And you can talk or ask questions in real time. The link to sign up is in the episode description, so find it there. Thank you, Hugo. Thank you, Lucy. It's been fab talking to you, and thank you, everybody, for listening.